UNERASING LGBTQ HISTORY AND IDENTITIES PODCAST SEASON 4 EPISODE 4

Published April 12, 2024

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TRANSCRIPT 

Deb Fowler: Hello, and welcome to UnErasing LGBTQ History and Identities — A Podcast. I’m Deb Fowler, co-founder of History UnErased. 

For this Deep Dive and Backstory episode, we had the opportunity to speak with the Honorable Patrick Murphy, who has served our nation and American democracy in many capacities: in the military, then in congress, as a statesman, and now as an educator, entrepreneur, and a regular commentator on national news outlets. I have a personal connection to this episode, and our colleague, Danny Roberts, does too. You will learn about all of that serendipity in the outro. But first, Kathleen Barker, our podcast host, will provide the historical context for why we wanted to speak with Patrick.

Take it away, Kathleen!

Kathleen Barker: Don’t ask, don’t tell. Four seemingly simple words that defined American military policy and ruined thousands of lives between 1993 and 2010. Of course, homophobia and discrimination in the Armed Forces were nothing new. During World War II, the United States Selective Service System declared that anyone suspected of “homosexual proclivities” could be excluded from the draft. The military even developed guidelines to help recruiters identify, and thereby exclude, gay men from their ranks. Despite these attempts at exclusion, many gender and sexually diverse Americans joined the military. 

A 1981 Defense Department policy openly discriminated against gays and lesbians, stating that “Homosexuality is incompatible with military service.” Over the next decade, more than 17,000 service members were discharged as a result of this belief that military service was somehow incompatible with queerness. 

This egregious loss of talent brought about a new policy: “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” in 1993, which allowed gays and lesbians to serve in the miliary, as long as they kept their sexual orientation a secret. By 2008, more than 12,000 officers had been discharged for making their sexual orientation public. Patrick Murphy, a young congressman from Pennsylvania, who had also served in the military, saw the negative effects of this policy firsthand. In 2009, he spearheaded a campaign to end “Don’Ask, Don’t Tell.” The History UnErased team sat down with him to learn more about his work, and why he believes the military could–and should–be a leader when it comes to inclusion. 

Welcome, Patrick. First, could you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?

Patrick Murphy: Sure. I'm Patrick Murphy from Bucks County, Pennsylvania. I was blessed and that I joined the Army at age 19, so a veteran and joined, and the army changed my life. I went to become an army officer through ROTC, and then eventually went to law school and then served as a professor at West Point where I taught constitutional law. And then was there when nine 11 happened and deployed to combat twice, including the invasion in Iraq where I lost 19 of my brothers in our infantry unit with the 80 secondary born invasion. And I came back home. I wanted to make a change in the world, and I came back home and ran for the US Congress and became the first Iraq War veteran after Congress, and eventually years later became the 32nd under Secretary of the Army under President Obama. And the acting Secretary of the Army.

KB: Mentioned being in the military, you saw the effects of don't ask, don't tell firsthand while you were serving. So what was that experience like?

PM: I grew up in a rural house in northeast Philadelphia, so you cared about the people lived that were attached to your house on a left and a right, shared a front step with another home. And in the military, it was the same way. You love the brothers and sisters that you get the honor to serve with. They are the best of the best. They are incredible Americans who wear the cloth of our country. But you get to see sometimes how people aren't treated the right way. And I would go through the toughest schools, airborne school, air assault school, and I was getting ready for ranger school when one of my colleagues, I found out that he got thrown out in the military. And this is someone that I bled with, someone that I had graduated with, and I just was absolutely heartbroken. He was such a phenomenal leader. He was the best officer that I went through the course with.

And when you see it with your own eyes, it's just another thing. It's just another thing that just, you can't unsee it. And to me, it's simple. You're either willing to stand for equality or not, and you're either willing to fight for it or you don't. And I stand for equality and I stand for fighting for what's right. That's how my parents told my brother, sister and I. And so I know whatever perch I was in life trying to change it. So when I was a professor at West Point, I would teach constitutional law and I would teach about the equal protection clause and what equality is all about. And I would challenge my students. And then when I had the opportunity to go into combat, and when I came home and ran for the Congress, I quickly realized that when Congress passed, don't ask, don't tell. Which again, kicked out over 13,000 troops that were serving honorably in our military just because of who they love. Just because they happened to be gay, it was wrong. So we had the first hearing in my committee, the personnel subcommittee with the Armed Service Committee, and I took on the fight to repeal it and to right this wrong.

KB: So one of the things we've been talking about at history UnErased is just in terms of taking on different battles, it seems like a lot of politicians today are less willing to stand up for or follow certain principles, follow maybe their morals. So I guess it's first of all, admirable that you did, and how do you think that kind of affected your time in Congress and your experience?

PM: Yeah, I think part of it, most of it is because I had a blue collar upbringing. My dad was a Navy veteran. My grandfather served in the Navy in the Pacific. My two uncles served in the Army in Vietnam, and my brother and I served, and my sister is a public school teacher. But at a very young age, my parents were very clear that if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. And I grew up literally and figuratively fighting fist fights a lot, played hockey in college, but the team in points and penalties. But I also fought for injustices that I saw throughout my life and that major injustice was kicking out my brothers and sisters because they have to be gay. And a lot of folks question well, because now a team's so acquainted, so people can't believe we had that policy. But change is hard. As Bobby Kennedy once said, moral courage is more rare than physical courage. And to have that moral courage to stand up and do what's right, I think that is what's missing in Congress right now. And I think people see it on both sides of the aisle. People are willing to play politics over policy and as educators that are listening to this podcast and people who love our country, it's our duty to let people know what right looks like.

When we were fighting to repeal Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, my local newspaper and suburban Philadelphia, the Bucks County Carrier Times, they literally editorialized against the repeal even though they knew their hometown Congressman was the one, the Murphy Amendment was the one fighting to repeal it. And that's okay because as I taught my kids who were very young then, one's in high school and one's still in grade school. But I said to them, Hey, your daddy has this job, but it's not to get reelected. My job is to serve the 700,000 Americans and in our country. And character is how you are when nobody's looking. And so when they're off to college in a couple of years, if they Google their daddy and look at his Wikipedia page, whatever, they're going to see that their dad fought for what was right. Their dad stood up for equality. Their dad was the author of the Repeal, don't Ask To Tell and Us House representatives. And I hope that makes them proud.

KB: Speaking of Don't Ask, Don't Tell… so you testified in front of a US Senate committee, and what were some of your main arguments, I guess, that you made before the committee?

PM: We had a hearing in the side, the House Armed Services Committee and the personnel subcommittee for the first one time ever. And we had the opponents that were against the repeal, and there were many, we had people like Y Elaine, not only who do testify that if we repealed hotel, there'll be more rapes in the barracks, that there'll be men making out in formation, et cetera. And I was very clear that if there is any misconduct, whether it's someone who's gay or straight, whatever, it doesn't matter. We have the UCMJ, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which was passed by Congress. We have military regulations that don't allow if they're a heterosexual couple. Now, the fact is that there's rules and procedures in place, and the fact is this is that our military, the American military is the best of the best, those known that can match our power because the men and women that serve, so to have dozens of other ally countries than ours, Canada, Israel, great Britain, whatever the case is, they allowed their professional military to serve openly.

They didn't get it, their troops because they happened to be gay. And so I took very great offense that they were saying that our American soldiers, our American troops, were not as professional as those other organizations, those other country's troops. And I found that hard to believe it. And I went to my colleagues in the house. I literally taught to every single member of Congress when I led this fight trying to get them on board. And I went to where they were and asked, listened to what their concerns were, and if they were Republicans that care about fiscal discipline, I let 'em know how this policy costs the American taxpayer over 1.2 billion beside kicking out two to three troops every single day. And if it was folks who said, well, I can't because Bishop, my Catholic bishop in my home district will give me a hard time or won't give me communion.

I let 'em know that they take an oath to support the Constitution of the United States of America, that they don't take an oath to the Pope. I happened to be devout Catholic myself. In fact, my mother was a Catholic nun, she was a Mac Hard Mary nun. And I told my brother, sister, and I what it was to stand up for those who are less fortunate to those who are at least among us, to those who are quick sometimes to hide behind a religion, but their heart is filled with hate and not with grace. And so these are the fights that my brother, sister, and I and those like us are wanting to take on then and are wanting to take on even now today.

KB: So in this whole process of pushing for the repeal, and you partially answered this already, but what were some of the most surprising questions or comments you received as you were talking to people?

PM: I think you got to remember, of my generation of Iraq, Afghanistan, veterans, less than 1% of the country that serves during this time, the longest war in American history. So they didn't understand that we were kicking out fighter pilots. They were kicking out doctors. They were kicking out Arabic speakers just because they were gay, again, not for misconduct. And I think that's where the rub is. People didn't understand that you were automatically thrown out. It wasn't a commander's discretion. You were automatically thrown out of the military if there was a Sam, a statement, an act or a marriage, meaning you said that you were gay. Two, they caught you an act or they saw pictures or three, you showed 'em a marriage certificate that you got married or a civil union that would automatically trigger a chapter process to throw you out of the military and it was wrong.

So that's what I think probably frankly surprised me the most because you just kind of assume that they would know that. But I had to walk people through it. And then how people didn't have trust and confidence in our military. Exactly. Professionals. I had a member of Congress got in my face and said that I'm going to have blood on my hands because there's going to be gays and lesbians that are going to be murdered in the barracks because of what I was doing. And I let him know very clearly and very sternly, one to get out of my face, but two, that this was a generational thing that he was frankly too old to understand that our younger Americans don't care about who you love. They just care whether or not we truly have equality in our nation. And if we abide by the US Constitution, that blueprint of our democracy, that is a pretty awesome document.

KB: I think that generational divide is kind of interesting because you had mentioned when we met earlier that the military could serve as a model or an agent of social change, which isn't necessarily, I think how certainly like my parents never thought of it that way. So it's fascinating to think of it in those terms, which makes a lot of sense though as you're describing.

PM: Yeah. Listen, I love the military. It changed my life for the better. I think those who serve in uniform are civic asset, citizen nation, they're leaders of character for a lifetime of service. But our military has been this, it's not a breeding ground, it's not some type of social experiment. It is a fighting force. But those generations of men and women that were America's fighting force have changed our country for the better. After World War ii Americans who went to college or university under the GI Bill, we democratized education. We expanded the middle class and America, tens of thousands of doctors, lawyers, engineers, accountants, utilize the GI Bill when have our country was still segregated during the middle of the Korean War where we had colored water fountains and colored restaurants and colored counters. We desegregated the military through an executive order by President Truman.

We had actually general officers and civilian leaders resign because that was so progressive at the time. But President Truman was righteous. President Truman said, we all wear green and we bleed red, and we don't care what color of your skin that you have, that you serve this nation and pass wars and in this war, and we are not going to segregate you any longer. That really was pretty powerful ushered in the Civil Rights Act or help usher in the Civil Rights Act. And then clearly if you read the Overfield decision with the US Supreme Court, the repeal of don't ask, don't tell, ushered in the marriage equality and our great nation that you can now marry the person that you love your heart with the most. And so that was examples of how our military has been a phenomenal change agent in America to make it frankly what our preamble of our constitution says. A more perfect union.

KB: Obviously you appear on a number of different TV networks. What do you tell people when they ask you why you appear on certain channels or give interviews to certain people or publications? What do you tell them?

PM: Yeah, listen, I'm probably one of the only folks in America that had his own show on MSNBC and had his own show on Fox, and I'm still now at Fox. But to me it's leadership is the art of inclusion. Leadership is inspiring others to do something they otherwise will not do. So whether I want Fox Business or Fox News or Fox Nation, I'm fighting the fight. I don't tell where my message to a certain audience I tell where I message to my fellow markets and I let 'em know straight up when I agree with the administration or when I don't, and I happen to be a proud Democrat and a proud Catholic and a proud American. But whether it's the Catholic church, the United States of America, the US Army, none of those organizations are perfect. But you know what makes our country great, the fact that we're a good country and that we have this constitutionalist blueprint of our nation that is a living, breathing document that says in the preamble, in order to form a more perfect union.

And so that preamble in that constitution is what every member of Congress, which every member of our armed services takes an oath to support and offend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. And so that is a righteous and powerful oath that I still take to this day that I think is something that guides me and guides my actions. And whether those actions were commentary on Fox News or M-S-N-B-C, it's something that I give it to the American people straight. And I think they appreciate that. I don't think they like people who talk out both sides of their mouth.

KB: As you know, we work with teachers and sometimes teachers are under fire for teaching all kinds of things that are labeled divisive concepts. Right. So what would you say or what advice would you offer to those who argue that teaching accurate inclusive history is divisive?

PM: Well, listen, our country is an incredible melting pot. And so talking about the melting pot, talking about our differences is a positive thing. But for those teachers, the message I give them would be, thank you, thank you, thank you. You are doing God's work. My sister's a public school teacher. She's been for decades. My sister-in-Law is one I've been teaching, whether it's at West Point or now at the University of Pennsylvania at the Wharton School business. It is such an incredible profession. You all get paid enough, honestly, you really don't. But I just want you to know there are so many of us that appreciate you, what you do. I tell parents, if you think being a parent is hard, imagine parenting 20 kids at the same time, eight hours a day, and some of those parents that you're teaching, you're the surrogate parent for thosE young men and women that you have that opportunity to mold to teach.

Imagine them being supported by their parents. And I know it's disheartening at times, but the overwhelming majority of Americans appreciate, our teachers know that the sacrifice that you make to be there for their children, to create a better America, a better community, to teach 'em the love of country, to teach 'em the love of learning, to teach 'em how important books are and how it is that America came to where we are today and our inclusive nature, that no matter what, where our ancestors may have come from, no matter what our skin color might be, whatever God we may or may not follow. The fact is this is that we're United States Americans and we are red, white, and blue, and we have a duty to make this country better every single day and make it better for our children tomorrow than we got it today.

And if you're a teacher or a student that's listening to this, when you see something that's wrong, you have a duty to make it right to do your little part, to tell that story about there was a wrongs happening in America, and are you going to be part of the solution or are you going to look the other way and hope, well, it's not going to happen to me or it's not going to happen to my brother or sister or my kids. It might. And you know what? You got to believe that our country is a good country, and you got to believe that we're good country because we understand that we're not perfect, but we got to strive every day to make it a better one. And whether that's equality, when you talk about LGBT LGBTQ plus, or whether it's equality about school systems or opportunities professionally, we all have a duty to make it better. In this great nation of ours and our community, we're this incredible melting pot of different nationalities of different face, different sexual orientations of differences. But if we unite and we come together and we strive to meet people where they are, we strive to make it a little bit easier, to make it a little bit more equitable, to make it a little bit more of an opportunity for all of us tomorrow than it is today. We'll have a better community. We'll have a better country because of your efforts,

DF: We extend tremendous gratitude to Patrick Murphy for not only taking the time to speak with us, but for enlightening policy makers and changing the course of history for an inestimable number of Americans.

And, as promised in the intro, the behind-the-scenes serendipity of this episode is this: I enlisted in the US Army in 1986 as a 98G, Korean Linguist, before the Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell policy. In 1988, I was discharged from the military - my DD214 (discharge document) reads “Fraudulent Entry” because I had checked the box “no” in response to an entrance form question that asked if I was a homosexual. It’s a very long story, which you can read in Vincent Cianni’s award-winning book Gays in the Military.

Danny Roberts: Hi, this is Danny Roberts. I was on MTV's "Real World" (New Orleans) in 2000 and became one of a few groundbreakers OUT on national television. My season drew attention to the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy due to my on-screen relationship with a covert US army captain. 

In 2022, Patrick Murphy reached out to me on social media with the following message:

“Appreciate your work. I was a young Army Captain in 2000 teaching at West Point and watching you on MTV. Went on to do two combat deployments and came home and ran and won to become the first Iraq Vet in the US Congress. The Murphy Amendment was the bill that finally repealed Don't Ask Don't Tell and I want to thank you for influencing me to always do the right thing. If I can ever be helpful, please let me know.”

DF: Danny’s tremendous courage to be OUT on national television nearly a quarter of a century ago, and impacting his life sinceu and Patrick’s courage a decade later to “do the right thing” - knowing it would probably impede his re-election, are shining examples of how honesty and visibility can be revolutionary. 

Kathleen Barker is History UnErased’s program director and is a library and information specialist and public historian with more than 20 years of experience as a museum and library educator. 

This podcast is funded by the New York City Council. It was developed by History UnErased and produced and edited by Dinah Mack, our youth equity program director and podcaster. 

Our theme music is “1986” by BrothaD via Tribe of Noise. 

Please rate this podcast and share! And visit UnErased.org to learn how we are putting LGBTQ history in its rightful place - the classroom - a powerful method to advance the ideals of American democracy by bringing honesty and visibility into the history, civics, and social studies education all students receive.

I’m Deb Fowler. Thanks for listening. 

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