UNERASING LGBTQ HISTORY AND IDENTITIES PODCAST SEASON 3 EPISODE 4

Published December 14, 2023

 

This History UnErased podcast is funded by the New York City Council. It was developed by History UnErased and produced and edited by Dinah Mack; Kathleen Barker; and Deb Fowler. 

 

TRANSCRIPT

Deb Fowler: Hello, and welcome to UnErasing LGBTQ History and Identities — A Podcast for Teachers. I’m Deb Fowler, executive director of History UnErased.

In this episode, our host Kathleen Barker will introduce a surprising backstory to a well-known holiday classic. You will also hear commentary from a few members of our team who gathered online for a screening of this holiday special - and then hit “record” to capture an unscripted discussion about the queerness in this holiday classic.

Take it away, Kathleen!

Kathleen Barker: OK, listeners, It’s time for some seasonal trivia…

Which 1964 animated holiday special has been described by critics as a “queer classic”? Is it …Frosty the Snowman; Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer; How the Grinch Stole Christmas; or A Charlie Brown Christmas? If you guessed Rudolph, your answer is right on the nose, so to speak!

Burl Ives: It was springtime and Santa's lead reindeer. Donner had just become a proud papa.

Donner: We'll call him Rudolph.

Mrs. Donner: Rudolph is a lovely name. Rudolph.

Donner: Hey, he knows his name already,

Rudolph: Mama.

Mrs. Donner: He, he's got a shiny nose,

Donner: A shiny I'd even say a glow.

Mrs. Donner: Well, we'll simply have to overlook it.

Donner: Now, how can you overlook that his beak blinks like a blinking beacon?

KB: Rudolph’s animated adventure is a holiday classic, which has been airing on television for more than 50 years. But did you know that Rudolph’s story first came to life in a book? Rudolph was created in 1939 by Robert L May, a copywriter for the Montgomery Ward department store. Store management wanted a cheery Christmas story to distribute to holiday shoppers. May decided to craft his “ugly duckling” story around a reindeer, a creature that would have no problem hanging out with Santa at the chilly North Pole. The book was a huge success, and Montgomery Ward distributed 2.4 million copies of Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer in 1939. Ten years later, in 1949, Robert May convinced his brother-in-law Johnny Marks to set Rudolph’s story to music. The original (and now ubiquitous) version was sung by popular entertainer Gene Autry and even reached number one on the billboard pop singles charts the week of Christmas in 1949. The song has since been recorded by a number of famous artists including Bing Crosby, The Jackson 5, and Alvin and the Chipmunks.

Next time you watch Rudolph, take a moment to appreciate some of the details. For example,  Hermey is  the only elf without pointed ears, and the abominable snow monster has 30 teeth (all of which Hermeyyy pulls at the end of the show). Take a look at those dogs pulling Yukon Cornelius's sled – they’re not Huskies!  Instead, you'll find a poodle, a cocker spaniel, a Saint Bernard, a Dachshund, and a collie. You'll also notice all sorts of other creatures inhabiting the North Pole, including fish, rabbits, raccoons, owls, squirrels, birds, polar bears, seals, and of course lots of reindeer.

You might also want to pay attention to some pretty impressive queer coding that happens throughout the film. Queer coding is the practice of implying or hinting at a character's sexual orientation or identity without actually stating it outright. It's a practice that's been going on in filmmaking for decades. For our December podcast, we thought we would turn the microphone on ourselves so some of The History UnErased team assembled to explore the queer coding in Rudolph, and to answer the burning question: Is Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer a queer classic?

Danny Roberts: I think so. More so after watching it tonight, his dad says he'll grow out of it right in the start.

Donner: I'm sure it'll stop as soon as he grows up Santa. Well, let's hope so. If he wants to make the sleigh team someday.

Tyler Albertario: There's a line where Rudolph says to Hermeyy, so you mean you don't mind my nose? And Hermeyy says, not If you don't mind being a dentist, like literally saying it, unquote,

Rudolph: You wouldn't mind my red nose?

Hermey: Not if you don't mind me being a . . . dentist.

Tyler: Well, the misfit toys also sing the line. Wake up. You know it's time to come out. I don't know if coming out as a concept was around at the time, but that also struck me.

DF: Rudolph was ahead of its time

Danny: And there's also the line where he says, “I'm independent. Do you want to be independent with me?”

Hermey: But I don't need anybody. I am independent.

Rudolph: Yeah, me too. Whatever he said. Independent.

Hermey: Hey, what do you say? We both be independent together, huh?

KB: I love all the nuance and subtext we're injecting into these lines.

Tyler: The theme of gender norms was very prominent. This is how you be a man. This is how you be a woman and men and boys, I mean men and women, girls and boys, everything was paired up. Also, when his nose is revealed, Santa says, Donner, you should be so ashamed.

Triana Wilson: And also when he was told that as an elf, you have to be an elf, and that's it. This is how Elfs do. This is what they eat. This is how they dress. This is what you do, period. As an elf. Yeah. Hermie had an interesting look. The blonde wisp, the little red lips, the longer eyelashes, the little pout,

Danny: But it's the dead giveaway. I picked that up as a three-year-old, I think, which is why I love this idea.

Burl Ives: Elves have that certain knack for toy making, all except for this one misfit.

Toy Shop Manager: Hermey, haven't you finished painting that yet? There's a pile-up a mile wide behind you. What's eating you, boy? 

Hermey: Not happy in my work, I guess.

Toy Shop Manager: What? 

Hermey: I just don't like to make toys. 

Toy shop manager: No? Well, if that's all … What?! You don't like to make toys? 

Hermey: No. 

Elves: Hermey doesn't like to make toys. Hermey doesn't like to make toys. Hermey doesn't like to make toys. Hermey doesn't like to make toys.

KB: Why is Santa such a jerk? Generally - and in particular to Rudolph, right? It's very different from the jolly man that we, the stereotypical Jolly Santa, but he's pretty intolerant and cranky, I think.

Dinah Mack: I thought Rudolph was really gracious to pull that sled. I mean, after all of that, he's like, oh, now I want you to pull my sled. I've disgraced you. I've insulted you in front of your father. I told you you couldn't be here. I kicked you out. You got cast off, and now I need you. And now I see this mark you have as a way to save me. 

DF: What is the correlation between having a blinking red nose and being able to participate? It was so illogical, but I mean, of course it's a story, but there's like where can you find any logic in that? Which is similar to the illogical notion of homophobia and transphobia and all of that. It's not rooted in anything actually logical.

Dinah: Even though he was jumping better than all those other deer right from the start.

Becca Veth: Well, Santa really kind of started and instituted the idea of discrimination.

Santa: Well, Donner, where's the new member of the family? After all, if he's going to be on my team someday he'd better get to know me. Well, hi there. Aren't you the sturdy little fellow!

Rudolph: Santa.

Santa: And smart too! Great bouncing iceberg 

Donner: Now. I'm sure it'll stop as soon as he grows up Santa. 

Santa: Well, let's hope so. . . if he wants to make the slay team someday.

Becca: You don't belong here. You don't belong here. You don't belong here. But it's almost like he came around at the end a little bit and was like, okay, everybody deserves a home. Does that make sense?

Dinah: Yeah. What do you think his transformation was? Santas?

Becca: I'm thinking it's possible that maybe he saw that Rudolph's disability was actually an ability, and maybe that kind of reframed his thinking. I guess you could say from the psychology perspective.

KB: In my pessimistic view, Santa just had a homework assignment that was due, and he needed a smart kid to do it for him, and oh, now you're my best friend. It's Christmas Eve. I need your help.

Danny: It was desperation. Agreed.

KB: I would love to see a follow-up to this. How does Santa treat Rudolph on December 26th or whenever he's recovered from his travels? We need more information. We need more data.

Dinah: I think so too, because I was getting the vibe that Santa wanted to actually cancel the whole thing and just put his jammies on and not go out. He's like, it's snowing, mama. There's no Christmas.

Misfits: We’re a couple of misfits. We’re a couple of misfits. We’re a couple of misfits, that’s where we fit in. We're not abby and silly, we don't go round willy nilly. Seems to us kind of silly, that’s why we don't fit in. We may be different from the rest, but who decides the test of what is really best? We’re a couple of misfits. We’re a couple of misfits. We’re a couple of misfits, and that’s where we fit in.

KB: So we have, as a reminder, our island of misfit toys. We have the train with the square wheels on its caboose, the elephant with the pink polka dots. We have a cowboy riding in ostrich.

Dinah: There was that bird who swam.

KB: There was a very depressed doll.

Dinah: The first time I saw this, I saw that doll and I was like, oh, maybe it's her haircut. I thought her bangs were off. So I was trying to figure out why is she on this island?

Tyler: Apparently, this has been debated for decades as to why she was on the island. Some theories were that she's missing a nose. There's another one that says she was just included as a girl toy because all the other toys were for boys unquote, either Rankin or Bass in an interview said that her mistress threw her away and she's been clinically depressed ever since.

Dinah: Charlie is really the most stereotypically queer character in this whole thing.

Charlie in the Box: Halt. Who goes there? 

Yukon Cornelius: Us, of course. Who'd you think? 

Charlie in the Box: Oh, well then that's okay. Okay. Who may I ask are you? 

Rudolph: We’re Rudolph and Hermey and Yukon Cornelius, sir. Who are you? 

Charlie in the Box: I'm the official century of the island of misfit toys. 

Hermey: A Jack in the box for a century? 

Charlie in the Box: Yes. My name is …

Rudolph: Don't tell me - Jack. 

Charlie in the Box: No, Charlie. That's why I'm a misfit toy. My name is all wrong. No child wants to play with a Charlie in the box. So I had to come here.

KB: I kind of envisioned King Moon racer as like a pre Sylvia Rivera and Marsha p Johnson and Star House, right? Going out and gathering all these little homeless and little children who need a place to be safe,

DF: Being their chosen family and clustering in particular neighborhoods. So that connection with Hermey and Rudolph from the beginning, that's exactly what came to mind.

Misfit Toys: How would you like to be a spotted elephant or a shoot you with square wheels on your caboose or a wire pistol and shoot jelly? We're all miss. How would you like to be a bird that doesn't fly? I swim. Or a cowboy who rides an austra ostrich or over the boat that can't. We're all miss.

Dinah: I wonder sometimes why Moon racer doesn't just enjoy this really diverse island. He has a kingdom. Why not just stay there? The island of misfit toys is kind of where it's at. Why not just keep them there and just keep collecting all the misfits and have this really amazing empire where you've got this really creative world instead of a whole world of water guns that shoot water.

Danny: Now got into commentary on being a gay misfit in the gay world. Because Cornelius goes, look at that… you're, you're even a misfit in the land of misfit toys.

Moom Racer: Come closer. What do you desire?

Rudolph: Well, we're a couple of misfits from Christmas town and now we'd like to live here.

Moom Racer: No, that would not be possible. This island is for toys alone. 

Yukon Cornelius: How do you like that? Even among misfits, you are misfits.

KB: Well, and speaking of coded, so what do we make of Yukon Cornelius?

Tyler: Bear.

KB: In one of the pieces I read, someone described Yukon Cornelius as a lumbersexual.

Triana: That is a bear. Yup, that is a bear.

Yukon Cornelius: Mush! Don't you understand? North ho - mush! Watch this. Hey, you get frost bit that away.

Rudolph: Who are you?

Yukon Cornelius: Who am I? The name's Yukon Cornelius. The greatest Prospector in the North! 

Bumble Snow monster. Aaaarrrrrr

Yukon Cornelius; Gadzukes, the bumble snow monster of the North strikes again.

KB: So now we have to talk about our Snow Monster transformed into the Bumble. So what do we make of the Bumble? What does it represent? How do you feel about the fact that the Bumble is completely neutralized as a thread by the end of the movie? Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Tyler: Well, to me it represented. I think they say it overtly. It's the real world and it becomes easier to face when you have your chosen family with you and even easier to face and embrace even when you have your family of origin with you.

Becca Veth: I kind of took away from it that everybody has the ability to not only change their perspective on how they view others, but also how they can make change within themselves to build a better community around them, like chosen family.

KB: Everyone is so positive. I just see it as, you know, trying to change nature and killing off all the good things in nature. That could be things that people are scared of, potentially scary things.

Dinah: Something must have happened between Cornelius and the Abominable Snow Monster off the screen. We don't know what happened. We don't know if they had a conversation. There was some transformation into Bumble when they hit the bottom of that gorge and bounced down.

Deb: But when Cornelius brought the Bumble back, one of the first things he said was, look what he can do. So I'm thinking maybe this could be a stretch, but the Bumble found its purpose and he had a way to contribute and participate. Therefore, he wasn't as angry for being locked out of Christmas town.

Becca: Well, and he also doesn't have to roam the world alone anymore.

KB: But he also has no teeth.

Dinah: But he has no teeth. Right? He's going to have to reconcile with Hermey for taking all his teeth out.

Danny: He just needs a crown.

KB: Yeah. Many people might read about or hear about Rudolph viewing Rudolph through a queer lens and say that it's just pushing an agenda or making up something that's not really there. Imagining something that's not really there. So what would we say to them

Triana: We're the greatest misfit story there is.

Tyler: What did Herme mean by those air quotes?

Triana: For queer people only - because they get it. If you know, or the title could have been "if you know, you know," because we all know.

Dinah Mack: You want the title to be Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer. If you know Nose You Nose!

Tyler: Great.

DF: And let's talk about Charlie in the box. We'll start there.

Dinah: I think also you might say, yeah, if you nose you nose, and also why not let queer kids, queer people have a lens to view this in? So if you nose who nose, and I guess I would say what's the harm?

Becca: Everybody has an individual perception of everything in the world, right? So we all might watch the same movie and some of us may not see anything queer related at all, but there might be a little kid out there that looks at Charlie or Hermey and say, oh, I kind of see myself in that character. And who are we to say you are wrong?

Triana: I mean, isn't that the point of art too, right? That we all, it just gets put out there and we all have our own interpretation based on our identity.

Becca: Exactly.

Triana: But I will say that historically, and you guys know this, queer people have always found an artistic way to express that. And I always, always think about the Lord Army and how that was written by a queer man. Even the song and everything, "Someday I want to be part of your world." And how he couldn't be with a spart and part of the heteronormative world and wrote the story based on the fact that he was a mermaid and then made it a she. But queer people have always found a way to communicate that longing or, you know, the experience of queerness. This was really evidently queer to me. But again, everyone's perception is different.

Danny: What's the meaning in the dentist piece? Typically, he would want to run off and be an artist. Why a dentist? What's that all about?

Tyler: It's just like an inverse of the typical thing because being an elf is already an artistic fashion, essentially. So, you just reverse it. And in the usual world, it would be like, Dad, I want to be an artist. No, you're going to dental school, whatever.

Danny: I've always wondered why dentists - why?

Dinah: There would be a lot of need in that North Pole for a dentist.

Becca: Because they didn't have one.

Dinah: All the candy. 

Triana; Oh, he would definitely be rich.

KB: So when Clarice sings that song, it's a lie. It really does not, in fact, get better. If Hermey decides to become a dentist. It could quite possibly get worse.

Becca: Maybe he'll beat the odds.

Danny: His hair will save him. This was a lot of fun. I'm glad you made this happen. This is so fun.

Triana: Same. And I think we should do it again. And I definitely think it's a queer movie. Just my thought.

Danny: I'll just say, this validated it for me because for years I've thought this is the gayest movie ever. And finally, I don't feel alone in this.

Triana: We like you. We like you, Danny!

Danny: Finally, I feel seen.

Becca Veth: You're cute!

Tyler: This was great. I've always heard that Rudolf is the gayest Christmas special out there and it was nice to jog my memory of something that I hadn't seen in a long time and see maybe how much I related to it when I was younger and I didn't even realize.

DF: Is Rudolph the Queerest Holiday classic?

Danny: Absolutely.

Becca: Yes!

Triana: I think so. Pretty, if not pretty close. I haven't seen every single movie, but yes, I would dare to say.

Tyler: Yes.

Triana: Yeah, at least a queer movie for sure.

Danny: Careful, we're going to end up having it banned.

Triana: Don't say that. Don't formally - don't endorse it. Maybe we should make a podcast about another movie.

Danny: You say: No, it's not! Alright, goodnight everybody.

Yukon Cornelius: Well, I'm off to get my life sustaining supplies, cornmeal and gunpowder and hamhawks and guitar strings. I'll give you a lift. Hop aboard matey. Now mush! Mush! Muuuush... like this. Watch.

DF: Our colleagues who provided the unscripted commentary include Becca Veth, Danny Roberts, Dinah Mack, Kathleen Barker, Triana Wilson, and Tyler Albertario.

The host of this podcast is Kathleen Barker, History UnErased’s program director. Kathleen is a library and information specialist and public historian with 20 years of experience as a museum and library educator. 

This podcast is funded by the New York City Council. It was developed by History UnErased and produced and edited by Dinah Mack, our podcaster and youth equity program director.

Our theme music is “1986” by BrothaD via Tribe of Noise. 

I’m Deb Fowler. Thanks for listening.

##